In the News
A Response from a Wingnut
A few weeks ago I made mention of a cult down in Utah Valley. I referred to them as wing-nuts which is probably not the most Christ-like reference that I might have chosen, although I can think of worse.
My excuse reason for doing so is that I get exceedingly frustrated at all of the groups and individuals that keep popping up, who create novel spin-off articles, books, blogs and podcasts and yes, sometimes entire movements, at least in part, from historical events and prophetic interpretations that I bring to light.
I fear that in many cases these doctrinal entrepreneurs have questionable motives and are leading people astray hence I am burdened by it..
They begin by introducing interesting and even enlightening things.. then sensational teachings.. then the sensational claims come… such as
“I have met with Joseph Smith! He is in a cave by Adam-ondi-Ahman translating some more records to bring forth! He has informed me that the rest of his associates are reincarnated and living on this earth.. in fact, Cest Moi Cest Moi, tis I and you and others of our enlightened group that are the end times servants!”
It just frustrates me that so many delusional wannabes keep popping up.
The Utah Valley Group has been around for along time making sensational claims about their revelations and visions, etc. However in recent years they have been able to reinvent themselves by using the “Joseph Smith and others are going to return” theme that they picked up from my blog.
After mentioning the wing-nuts down in Utah Valley in a blog post, I was actually contacted by one of them in the comments section.
This was his reply:
Just a comment on the “wingnuts.”
I’m one of those that meets with these people. The reincarnation stuff about who was who in the last round (last laborers in the first kingdom) is mostly for fun. Not all of us go along with it, such as myself. The focus of getting together is simply discussing the Doctrine of Christ and worshipping together, and teaching LDS people about the Doctrine of Christ in ways the LDS Church has neglected. I would invite you to learn about it, then perhaps do an adequate post on where we are wrong (or right).
This was my response:
Thank you for providing a response.
Can you expound on “mostly for fun”.
Help me understand the lessor part that is not for fun. ?!?!?
Clearly, there are key leaders of the group that take themselves very seriously as the reincarnated return of the Lords servants from the LDS restoration movement
Why do you humor them by participating in the group if you are not buying what they are selling??
I suspect that members of the group feel that they have identified Joseph Smith. Which member of the group is it?
I have reason to believe that members of your group have accepted Mauricio Bergers claim of being Joseph Smith.. is that true or is it a member of your Utah Valley group that has been designated as Joseph Smith?
I understand that you guys reject the atonement statute/intercessory role of Joseph Smith, preferring to believe that he never committed any serious sins in his role as God’s latter day intercessory prophet..
From what I have heard I really don’t see any net benefit in participating in your Mt Nebo Alter Worship Services.
I am however willing to allow you to provide a summary of what your group really does believe and why you think a person can benefit from participation.
I commend you for speaking up.
Thank you.
He responded back thusly:
Yes, there are a couple of people who like to speculate who someone was in a past life. I can’t say that some don’t take it seriously but many don’t. The point is to rise up now and become a servant in this life.
No one is or thinks they are Joseph Smith. Most believe he hasn’t come on the scene at this point. I believe in a Davidic Servant, and perhaps think it could be a reincarnated Joseph Smith, or perhaps aided by Joseph as a resurrected being or angel. The jury’s out for me. We all find Maricio Berger to be a fraud.
No one correlates belief, though there are some strong voices. I joined because I wanted a brotherhood and this one was offering a brotherhood.
I disagree quite frequently with the strong voices out there and I’m not censured. But we agree about the most important things mentioned in 3 Nephi 11. No group will be perfect until Zion comes, IMO, so if you are I are looking for doctrinal perfection, we aren’t going to find it.
If there other options out there, I’m happy to check those out too, apart from the vapid LDS priesthood quorum meetings.
This was my reply:
“I would suggest that there is an inner circle within the group… and you won’t be admitted in until you finish drinking the glass of cool-aid and fully share the same delusion.
Your desire to be part of a brotherhood is a natural impulse. But you should not join a brotherhood just because you desire to be part of a brotherhood.
Joseph Smith once essentially taught that every religious group (outside of the “fulness of the gospel” when it is on the earth) has a distinct “spirit” that leads it further away from the narrow path.
There are people in the group you are in that are making some very seriously false claims.”
**End of my reply to him**
His statement that the entire group finds Mauricio to be a fraud is interesting to me because I know for a fact that several in the group were followers of Mauricio and or Joseph F. Smith at one time. But I am really glad if they have gotten that delusion out of their system.
And that is how many of these fringe group people roll, they jump from group to group looking for the holy grail of priesthood authority and spiritual gifts, not to mention "brotherhood"
I actually knew of this person that contacted me because I had listened to one of the podcasts or videos that he had posted on the site of this Utah Valley Group. Ironically the topic he addressed was on how to identify true servants and false servants, etc.
In his presentation he admitted to having been a follower of Denver Snuffer and said that Denver’s writings had helped him. However he has apparently left the Snufferite movement to follow a new charismatic leader.. at least I assume.. perhaps this guy is part of both groups. Lots of people are double-minded now days and join competing groups.
After pondering his partial denial that the group has a significant fixation on trying to figure out which historical figure each of them are, I decided to double check with a person who has an intimate knowledge of the workings of this group so I sent them the following message with a copy of the back and forth conversation and asked for a reply:
“I had an online chat with PB the other day and he says most members of their group don't really take seriously the possibility that some of their members represent the reincarnated return of the servants”
This is the reply I got:
“Watcher,
PB is trying to diffuse and downplay the situation. I can assure you that the key players are taking it very seriously that they are the reincarnated servants.
They have said that some of their followers do not know who they “really” are - that they try and hold this knowledge close to them.
XXXX XXXXXXX shared with me the details of their Sunday evening “School of the Prophets” meetings.”
** End of their first response. **
This is pretty much the response I was expecting. The thing you need to know about these kinds of cults is that they are somewhat like Masonry and other secret societies in that they don’t tell the really deep secretive stuff to new, lower-level members of the group until they prove their loyalty and belief.
Only those in the inner circle have the higher deeper secret knowledge.
The person that replied to me then proceeded to share a whole bunch more information about the group which I still have not taken the time to digest yet.
Bottom-line:
I believe that PB is sincere and is a really good person who passionately desires to know Christ and to gain further light and knowledge. He also desires to share his knowledge with others. However he appears to be very trusting and gullible and not very discerning. Partly because he is somewhat new to the realization that the orthodox teachings he has been indoctrinated with are not correct. And he has not been searching the scriptures for very long. And therein is the problem oftentimes. Zeal without knowledge is a dangerous thing.
I am bringing up this unsavory topic because the emergence of these kinds of groups is a fulfillment of prophecy. Joseph and Jesus both said that false teachers and prophets would arise just before the return of God’s servants and His Son..
/What makes groups like these so dangerous?
In noticed that one of the presenters on that platform boldly declared that the authority to bestow the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost has been restored to the earth.
He then admonished everyone to pray to the Lord to guide them to those that now hold the priesthood Keys.. with the obvious implication that the keys are now enjoyed by that group.
This is how they lure people in.
So apparently the charismatic leader or leaders of the group not only met with Joseph Smith in the cave, they also received the priesthood keys to give people the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost.
Could Joseph Smith be living in a cave and translating plates right now?
Could he be giving people the priesthood keys?
Sure.
Do I believe he is?
It would take something more to convince me than a group with the history that this one has.
By their fruits ye shall know them..
